Curse

frickett · May 18, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

How did this turn into a pvp, pve debate? I don't have an elementalist, because of all the bad press they have gotten. I don't understand the logic behind having engergy storage to increase your max energy, only to have it taken away again by exhaustion.

Loquetus · May 18, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peewee

However, in reality warriors do very little dmg in 8v8. In fact, their damage is almost comparable to that of an elementalists. Why is this? Well, its because warriors spend a vast amount of time being shut down relative to the elementlist. It is very rare for the warrior not to be blinded, weakened, or have some hex on them for much of the fight. Now, Faintheartedness drops dmg from a warrior by 50% straigh of, and weakness cuts dmg by a further 2/3s. Blind may as well just take the warrior away completely. Now, if there were conditions that did the same to spell casters, then you would have a right to complain. Ok, there is Migraine, but its elite, and is nowhere near as spammable as faint.
.

concussion shot, boad head arrow, dist shot, savage shot, skull crack (asassin daze skill), incendiary arrow, choking gas, backfire, soul leech, mark of subversion, shame, guilt, diversion, migraine (hell of a lot of mesmer spells)

sure you can say a caster isn't worthless while under backfire but i rarely see casters cast while under it (besides newbies), same with soul leech etc

blind doesn't kill the warrior
backfire, soul leech, mark of subversion etc all kill the caster with relative ease (cover up hexes make it near impossible to get the hex off)

if ele is dazed he's just useless (someone else is going to have to remove it cause you try using mend ailement while dazed...)

war's can heal while blinded try self healing with a caster when dazed

about faint etc
ever heard of: flurry, frenzy, tigers fury etc to up attack speed?
i'm pretty sure alot of warriors use frenzy (they are being protected by a monk anyway and not the priory target)

Phades · May 18, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peewee

Ok, warriors have what i call a higher 'crude' dps. Eles have a realtively low 'crude' dps. This is to say that if both were to attack dummies one by one, then the warrior would do the most dmg fastest, and more often.

However, in reality warriors do very little dmg in 8v8. In fact, their damage is almost comparable to that of an elementalists. Why is this? Well, its because warriors spend a vast amount of time being shut down relative to the elementlist. It is very rare for the warrior not to be blinded, weakened, or have some hex on them for much of the fight. Now, Faintheartedness drops dmg from a warrior by 50% straigh of, and weakness cuts dmg by a further 2/3s. Blind may as well just take the warrior away completely. Now, if there were conditions that did the same to spell casters, then you would have a right to complain. Ok, there is Migraine, but its elite, and is nowhere near as spammable as faint.

Your logic is highly flawed. Especially when under weakness warriors come down to the wand damage level, but it doesnt affect their damage bonus from skills or any augmentation from any other source. You obviously havent been dazed either as a elementalist. That is far superior to faintheartedness in every possible sense. Migraine stacked with arcane conodrum is by far worse as well. Physical damage dealers have more types of counters, but the anti-elementalist ones are more potent.

The problem is that you must bring warrior counters in order to survive against them. To survive against one elementalist, you only need 1 copy of reversal of fortune. Against many you only need protective spirit. Those skills hurt warriors as well, but not nearly as much as how they flat out neuter single source damage packets with a long delivery time that elementalists represent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peewee

All in all the warriors high dps is offset by the large amount of counters they face. Elementalists, on the other hand, have a relatively low dps (although they can still spike very well) but are unhindered by quite the same amount of hexes and conditions as warriors. All in all it balanced.

You can choose to not bring elementalist counters and shut down options and do fine, you can not choose to avoid bringing physical damage counters. That is most certainly not balanced. Hell, even a all ele spike team cant happen anymore due to shelter existing. Have fun hunting that down with your team of eles on a ritual lord or soul twisting ritualist and possibly oath shotting ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peewee

Elementalists, while they do seem to simply facilitate spamming of Heal Party, are none the less well balanced, and imo, do not need fixing.

Oh boy, now we are on the road of nerfing elementalist energy gain again, because they are abusing another monk skill through unintended chain casting. Yeah, that hardly makes the entire skill sets from the ele seem worth while.

Mysterial · May 18, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Hell, even a all ele spike team cant happen anymore due to shelter existing.

I actually have some hope that the Ritualist mass anti spike options might finally get Arenanet off their terror of Elementalist spiking (which is the reason Lightning Hammer is so retardedly overpriced). After all, if you can counter any number of Elementalist spikers with a single Ritualist, does it really matter if those builds are using a 170 damage Lightning Orb instead of 140?

lishi · May 18, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquetus

concussion shot, boad head arrow, dist shot, savage shot, skull crack (asassin daze skill), incendiary arrow, choking gas, backfire, soul leech, mark of subversion, shame, guilt, diversion, migraine (hell of a lot of mesmer spells)

sure you can say a caster isn't worthless while under backfire but i rarely see casters cast while under it (besides newbies), same with soul leech etc

blind doesn't kill the warrior
backfire, soul leech, mark of subversion etc all kill the caster with relative ease (cover up hexes make it near impossible to get the hex off)

if ele is dazed he's just useless (someone else is going to have to remove it cause you try using mend ailement while dazed...)

war's can heal while blinded try self healing with a caster when dazed

about faint etc
ever heard of: flurry, frenzy, tigers fury etc to up attack speed?
i'm pretty sure alot of warriors use frenzy (they are being protected by a monk anyway and not the priory target)

i can write down many more skill who can shut down warrior damage.

but you can just use your w , a , s , d key ...

frenzy double the damage you take(the monk can heal some of that but it require another person to do that)
flurry reduce your damage
tiger fury is 10 energy and other draw back ...

And backfire and stuff dont kill you , you just dont cast and you dont take damage , plus they last about 10 second.

a warrior blinded (or clippled) is complety useless , until tha get removed by a monk ...

see? is balanced.

guppy · May 18, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

After all, if you can counter any number of Elementalist spikers with a single Ritualist, does it really matter if those builds are using a 170 damage Lightning Orb instead of 140?

Sorry, but then you force groups to run ritualists because of just how deadly the spikes would be without one. I really don't think thats the solution (despite some spirits being amazing counters).

Quote:

And backfire and stuff dont kill you , you just dont cast and you dont take damage

So this is not shutting down a caster because?? There are many ways to shut down casters as there are warriors.

lishi · May 18, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Sorry, but then you force groups to run ritualists because of just how deadly the spikes would be without one. I really don't think thats the solution (despite some spirits being amazing counters).

So this is not shutting down a caster because?? There are many ways to shut down casters as there are warriors.

i was replying about blind dont kill a warrior while backfire kill a caster. not is not about shut down stuff.

and your last sentence say what i concluded. the ele (but minor fix) are balanced.

Undivine · May 18, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

*takes a deep breath*

Soul Bind, Wail of Doom, Diversion, Clumsiness, Amity, Pacifism, Healing Hands, Mark of Protection, Holy Wrath, Shield of Judgement, Faintheartedness, Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Shadow of Fear, Blurred Vision, Price of Failure, Spirit of Failure, Reckless Haste, Soothing Images, Sympathetic Visage, Ranger dodge skills, warrior dodge skills, assassin dodge stances, Distortion, Aegis, Guardian, Shield of Deflection, Mist Form, Ward Against Melee, Displacement, Crippling Anguish, Muddy Terrain, Ethereal Burden, Imagined Burden, Shared Burden, Iron Mist, Ward Against Foes, many slow-down water hexes, Shadowy Burden, Binding Chains, any skill that causes blind, any skill that causes weakness, any skill that cuases cripple including many traps, and any skill that can teleport you away.

All ways to stop the warrior's attacks that the elementalist can get through. Actually, in a sense, the ele's power comes from the fact that people prepare to defend against the warriors. If you just have warriors, it's a peice of cake to stop them. If you just have eles, it's... well if you have a lot of eles it can be difficult but you can stop them. If you have both, that's a lot harder to manage.

Mysterial · May 18, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by guppy

Sorry, but then you force groups to run ritualists because of just how deadly the spikes would be without one. I really don't think thats the solution (despite some spirits being amazing counters).

That's like complaining that IWAY forces groups to bring Warrior counters. If Elementalist spiking is being used successfully (and I doubt it would be very often even if Lightning Orb did 170 damage) then you bring the skills that counter it (which, BTW, can be done with a large selection of skills other than a ritualist's). Welcome to Guild Wars.

Jestah · May 19, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Oh please dont start this "All those people are stupid and I know better" thing.

Say what? Where did you get that impression?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Who needs a removal for this junk? On the other hand our dear smites have more than enough hex removal, yet SS still owns them like nothing, and it just got huge buff.
Yeah right useful my lower back...

Smite Hex is "more than enough" hex removal? When I referred to factions having a lot of hex removal I meant expel hexes which I've noticed on a lot a mobs. If I remember right Smite Hex removes 4 hexes a minute and is easy to prevent with a cover hex. Expel Hexes can remove 14 a minute and takes 2 at a time which means you'll have to double cover. Plus every time I've tried SS vs. these mobs they remove it before I can get off even 1 cover, never mind 2. That mean's you have to cast 4 hexes (junk hex, SS, cover, cover) just for 1 cast.

When I said you can't remove a meteor shower I meant it comparatively to the other main source of AoE damage. I'm trying to discuss not argue so please, there's no need to be a jerk.

Hurricane · May 21, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I think if we just add Agro's Cry, not only will Elementalists sound cool, (Guild Lord!! PRIEST!!!!!) but will do some respectful damage too.

prism2525 · May 23, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

One thing I surely agree... the eles are way underpowered and their role seems to start being replaced. Nuker? There's the N/Me which doesn't have Exhaustion and VERY fast cast/recharge, not to mention it doesn't trigger the AoE AI fleeing. All for 15 energy and lasts 21 seconds?? (16 curses) What's this? A joke? I think SS should get its recharge to at least 30 seconds to get the balance a bit better.

Also... Flare at 1 sec cast time?? That skill (like stone daggers and ice spear) should get it's cast time to 1/2 sec. I mean, eles know their element so well that they can just shoot basic spells like that in a jiffy, not take a whole second to contemplate on it. I know about the spamming thing but this is not what i'm in with this. Simple spell such as this should be more than spammable.

I would also like to point out the HORRIBLE state of the Meteor Shower. While I agree about the exhaustion and energy (but maybe a little faster recharge? Say 45 sec) Meteor shower starts right? and the animation makes all ppl int its area scatter. IMO it should hit IMMEDIATELY, lasting for 6 seconds instead. If you don't understand what I'm saying, look:

Current Meteor Shower:

Casting: 3sec, dmg + knockdown, 3sec, dmg + knockdown, 3 sec, dmg + knockdown.

My idea: dmg + knockdown, 3 sec, dmg + knockdown, 3 sec, dmg + knockdown.

This way you get at least 1 hit with it. AI stays until after the 1st hit, but players use their eyes and flee as soon as the animation starts. (I do as well)
__________________________________________________ ___________

Some skills I think would be nice (but not overpowered)

Earth wave: 15e, 1/2 cast, 30 sec
All creatures in the area are thrown outside your agro range.

Meteor Shower (revisited): 25, 5, 45
Target foe and all foes in the area are hit for 7-112 fire dmg and are knocked down. This is repeated every 3 seconds for the next 6 seconds. If Meteor shower hits a moving foe, that foe is knocked down for 2 seconds instead. This spell causes exhaustion.

Static Hit: 10, 1, 15
Target foe is struck for 10-75 lightning dmg. Foes near your target are struck for 1-15 lightninh damage.

Lung-freezing Mist: 20, 2, 45
Create a Lung-Freezing Mist at target foe's location. For 3-18 seconds, foes in the area are afflicted by weakness and have -15 armor against cold damage. This spell causes minor exhaustion.
__________________________________________________ ___________

I also like the idea of faster energy regen while out of combat for casters. ^^

Priest Of Sin · May 23, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

*deep breath*

THERE IS NO ELE PROBLEM! THE LAST TIME I CHECKED, THEY'RE THE ONLY CLASS THAT CAN DO 150+ DAMAGE WITH ONE SKILL FOR GOD'S SAKE! AND ALL THE ELES COMPLAINING ARE FIRE ELES, THE LIGTNING ELES DON'T GRIPE ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY CAN TOTALLY OWN ANYONE! PLEASE BE QUIET NOW! AGAIN, THERE IS NO ELE PROBLEM.

Disagree with me? Go try to take the elementalist shrine by yourself, or with one buddy who isn't a monk. Pwnt.

dreamhunk · May 23, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

I have to say I am a fire elemental, I personaly think yes the elementals needs to be looked at. I also think that water, earth and air should be doing the same amouts of damage or close to each other. However fire should be doing a little more damage than the others but they should be close. There needs to be more creative skills for these classies to other than damage.

Iraqalypse Now · May 23, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

There is no ele problem, the only problem with eles is trying to force them into a role they don't work at - extended damage over a large timeframe. Make a utility build and own with it (pvp or pve) and then come back. Earth ele with wards, air ele with blinding flash spam.

demon dantes · May 23, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

lol i read like 2 sentences of your statement and i just have to laugh. warriors thinking they are better then eles? any warrior anytime go up against a earth ele and see what happends to you. o and don t stand there and try and use heal sig lol. oooooh that uber mending like lot of good it does through a spike plus kd plus 2 more spikes b4 you even get 2 feet to the ele lol. there are other eles out there other then the fire ele. as for the rest of what was said i didn t know there was a ele problem did i not get the memo again

Hurricane · May 23, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by demon dantes

lol i read like 2 sentences of your statement and i just have to laugh. warriors thinking they are better then eles? any warrior anytime go up against a earth ele and see what happends to you. o and don t stand there and try and use heal sig lol. oooooh that uber mending like lot of good it does through a spike plus kd plus 2 more spikes b4 you even get 2 feet to the ele lol. there are other eles out there other then the fire ele. as for the rest of what was said i didn t know there was a ele problem did i not get the memo again

Irresistable Blow can knock an Earth elementalist off of his feet.

Seriously.

Quote:

THERE IS NO ELE PROBLEM! THE LAST TIME I CHECKED, THEY'RE THE ONLY CLASS THAT CAN DO 150+ DAMAGE WITH ONE SKILL FOR GOD'S SAKE! AND ALL THE ELES COMPLAINING ARE FIRE ELES, THE LIGTNING ELES DON'T GRIPE ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY CAN TOTALLY OWN ANYONE! PLEASE BE QUIET NOW! AGAIN, THERE IS NO ELE PROBLEM.

Disagree with me? Go try to take the elementalist shrine by yourself, or with one buddy who isn't a monk. Pwnt.

Been there, done that.
Dodge his lightning orbs. You win.

Also, they can't do 150+, unless they use Glyph of Elemental Power and Lightning orb, then maybe it's possible.

Even so, if you do 150 damage, you won't be able to dish it out fast enough.

Markaedw · May 23, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I don't use fire ele anyway, when I beat Shiro, he found it very hard to hit anyone when frozen, blinded, knocked down and eviserated, with lower armor.

It's all about knowing your skills, there are several earth spells that ignore armor, like obsidean flame add to archane echo, that will kill a warrior faster than anything, thats the whole point of "balance".

Hurricane · May 23, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

I don't use fire ele anyway, when I beat Shiro, he found it very hard to hit anyone when frozen, blinded, knocked down and eviserated, with lower armor.

It's all about knowing your skills, there are several earth spells that ignore armor, like obsidean flame add to archane echo, that will kill a warrior faster than anything, thats the whole point of "balance".

Maybe you'll kill the warrior, but you won't be able ot kill anything else for a long time if you Arcane Echo Obsidian Flame. An Elementalist can kill a Warrior. An Elementalist cannot kill anything else as fast as a Warrior can however. And there's 2 Earth Skills that ignore armor. Crystal Wave and Obsidian flame. Crystal Wave is a lot of energy and requires you to be very close to your target to do anything.

Phades · May 23, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

*deep breath*

THERE IS NO ELE PROBLEM! THE LAST TIME I CHECKED, THEY'RE THE ONLY CLASS THAT CAN DO 150+ DAMAGE WITH ONE SKILL FOR GOD'S SAKE! AND ALL THE ELES COMPLAINING ARE FIRE ELES, THE LIGTNING ELES DON'T GRIPE ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY CAN TOTALLY OWN ANYONE! PLEASE BE QUIET NOW! AGAIN, THERE IS NO ELE PROBLEM.

Disagree with me? Go try to take the elementalist shrine by yourself, or with one buddy who isn't a monk. Pwnt.

Sorry, but you are sadly mistaken. Warrriors, rangers, assassins, and even mesmers spike harder than elementalists do. When you begin to figure in things like deep wound doing 90+ damage on top of the listed damage, your figurative numbers of leetness go out the window. What is interesting is that most of all the other professions in the game deal the bulk of their hard hitting damage in armor ignoring fashions. Elementalists are the exact reverse.

Gross ignorance or misinformation ftw as it were.